Ep 2 - The Catholic Mass: Restoring the Sacred Through Tradition (Fr Dan Yasinski)

The Catholic Mass: Restoring the Sacred Through Tradition
Have we forgotten what makes the Mass sacred?

Every generation receives the liturgy as a gift — but not every generation guards it the same way. In this episode, Fr. Dan Yasinski and I explore how Sacred Tradition is the heart of the liturgy — and why recovering that understanding can renew the Church today.

We’ll look at:
➡️ Why Tradition is at the heart of the Catholic liturgy
➡️ Why we shouldn’t chase either antiquity or novelty
➡️ How Tradition develops under the guidance of the Holy Spirit
➡️ What “Restoring the Sacred” really means for today’s worship

This is part two of our series on The Catholic Liturgy: The Reform of the Reform — a deeper look at how the Church’s worship can once again draw hearts to God in reverence and truth.

Transcript

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Every Catholic generation inherits the faith, but not every generation guards it in the same way. Have we gone from receiving the liturgy as a gift to something that we can redesign?

This is episode two on our weekly series on the liturgy. Today we're looking at three big questions. Why is tradition at the heart of the liturgy? Why we shouldn't go too far back or chase every new trend? And how can tradition help us renew the liturgy? First, you'll see a homaly delivered by Father Dan. and then we sit down here to have a deeper discussion. So, make sure you stay to the end.

In his book, The Mystery of Christian Worship, the Benedicting Monk and theologian Dom Castle wrote the following. The church does not belong to yesterday and she need not always be producing novelties for she has treasures that never grow old. She is happy with tradition. Dom Castle was on to something there. One of the keys to properly understanding the nature of the mass, the liturgy is sacred tradition.

She has treasures which never grow old. In fact, we could say to understand our entire Catholic faith, yet alone the liturgy, we need to understand tradition. And so here's our game plan for the second homaly on the liturgy. I want to briefly describe what sacred tradition is and then apply it to the liturgy. In doing so, I want to provide a framework for us going forward because at the heart of the liturgy is sacred tradition. And so, what is sacred tradition?

One thing we know, it's a neglected doctrine. I know this because I only give it 30 minutes in my RCIA class. I just lump it in there. with the magisterium and the holy scriptures. But sacred tradition is this. It's the handing on of the apostolic faith from Jesus and the apostles from one generation to the next through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And so sacred tradition not only includes our doctrine. Tradition includes our worship, our ethics, our morality, our music and art. It includes sacred scripture. It includes really the entirety of our faith written and unwritten. Here then are are three important points about sacred tradition and you can write them down if you want to remember them. Yeah. Point number one, sacred tradition develops and it's always a deeper development as the church through the ages lives with the faith and in communion with God. She always comes to a deeper understanding of God. like an old married couple who come to know each other after years of marriage. Likewise, the church and God, we come to a deeper understanding of him. And so, from one generation to the next, our faith is perfected. A wonderful example of this is our faith in the Eucharist. We've always believed in the real presence. We see that in the early church fathers and their writings. But it wasn't until the 11th and 12th century that we came up with that big word we like transubstantiation. This word was not present in the early church. It's a development of the faith more precise language. And if St. Peter were alive today, he would say that that's exactly what we believed. and you've done a better job describing it. Tradition develops over time, perfected. And secondly, sacred tradition is handed on from one generation to the next. It doesn't skip an age or a generation. If it did, we'd be in trouble. As GK Chesterton said, "Tradition is the democracy of the dead." And so we receive it with humble and trembling hands. And thirdly, sacred tradition is the work of the Holy Spirit. As the second Vatican council says in de verbam, it's the holy spirit guiding us always in one generation to the next. And so those are the three important points about sacred tradition. I'm glad you wrote them down and you remember them. But what is important is this. What we can say about sacred tradition, we can say about our liturgy, our mass because it is through sacred tradition that the liturgy is given to us. The liturgy is part of sacred tradition. And so the liturgy develops. It's perfected from one generation to the next. and we humbly receive it and it's guided by the Holy Spirit. And so in light of this, there's a strong connection between tradition and liturgy. And because of this, the church always rejects two extremes when it comes to the liturgy. And this is the heart of my homaly. We reject a preoccupation with antiquity and with novelty. The first one, a preoccupation with antiquity. Are you still with me? Don't worry, I'll be done before all of us become antiques. Well, we'll get out of here. As Catholics, we reject what is called an antiquarian view of the liturgy. This is a desire to go back to the early church and celebrate the liturgy just like they did. This is an erroneous view. It says that what is celebrated in antiquity, we must celebrate today. For example, our our Lord's first mass was celebrated in an upper room at the last supper around a table. Therefore, our altars must be like simple tables. We we don't accept that line of thinking. Pope Pas I 12th, who was Pope right before the second Vatican council warned us about this in 1947 in his encyclical mediad. He wrote this. It is neither wise nor laudable to reduce everything to antiquity. one would be strained from the path. Were he to wish the altar be restored to a primitive table? Were he to exclude black from our liturgies? Were he to order the crucifix so designed so as to exclude no trace of our Lord's sufferings? In other words, just because the early church did something doesn't mean we have to do it exactly that way as well. To have an antiquated view of the liturgy is to reject sacred tradition that the Holy Spirit has passed on our liturgy from one generation to the next. And you know we we would never do this to our doctrine an antiquated view. We would never say let's get rid of the word transubstantiation. Let's go back to something simple. But sometimes we do that with our liturgy. But that's an antiquated view. That's the first air we must always go against. The second heir is novelty. This is always the desire to do something new and modern. This too is to reject tradition. It's to say we know better than those who have come before us. in the same encyclical pious rope. But we observe with considerable anxiety anxiety that elsewhere certain enthusiasts overeager in their search for novelty are strained beyond the path of prudence. End quote. In other words, when it comes to our liturgies, new is not the name of the game. Tradition is the name of the game. Is there a place for the new? Of course there is. But always through the guidance of the old. And moreover, the new should not entirely replace the old. And this is why the the poker masses of the 80s and 90s, not sure if you remember those, but it's why they're not appropriate because these things would be a sheer novelty, not in line with tradition. And so in closing, it's in this context that once again I'd like us to see our practices at Lords, the tabernacle in the center at Orientum worship, the use of altar rail, sacred Latin focus on beauty and reverence. These are are practices that we in our church in search for antiquity and novelty have sometimes forgotten about. But they're still permitted by Holy Mother Church. And they come to us through sacred tradition, through the lives of the saints. And they're beautiful. For as Dom Castle said, "They are treasures that never grow old." For she, the church, is happy with tradition.

And indeed we are, Dom Castle. Indeed, we are. God bless you. God love you. Amen. Father Dan, welcome back. Ken, it's good to be back. I I come on once or twice and you just put me to work here. Well, it's just it's true and I'm we appreciate the time you give because I know you're really busy. Uh your homaly when I were sat there at mass, it was just it was excellent and I it caused me to start having some questions though because we you talk about tradition and you spoke about tradition as um something that organically develops over time. Did I get that right? That one aspect of tradition. Yeah, it's it's passed on from one generation to the next. Okay. So, but you first said it's organic development. Sure. Okay. So, that's one that was kind of a sticking point for me. Not that I disagree with that definition of tradition, but I fail or struggle to see how the norous ordo fits into that definition of tradition because if tradition part of tradition is something that organically develops, but we see that with doctrine. It's organically developed over time where we have the Norse order, we had the second Vatican council and then a special committee meets together of experts and then they come up with what seems in lay man's terms a a new mass of of doing things. You know, we lost Latin. Uh the priest is now turned around. Uh we don't have altar rails. People started receiving communion in the hand. That's a widespread practice. And so when I heard your homaly it I looked at the novas and I I thought it it doesn't seem to me something that has organically developed over time but a sudden innovation. So I I want you to respond to that concern that many people probably have of the novasto. Certainly and thanks for the question can you know these can be sensitive matters you know dealing with the liturgy and people have lots of feelings concerning them. So I I from the outset I I just want to say this so people know uh because we are doing a homaly this whole series is on the liturgy. Yes. And a reform of the reform right. But and so I I I think it's important again people just realize like I'm a diosis and priest. I celebrate the ordinary form of the mass every Sunday. And so I believe it's a legitimate valid mass in line with the tradition of the church. And when celebrated beautifully and reverently and with great somnity, it is a can be a heavenly experience. And so uh I just want to say that I think that's important to lay up. You bring up a good point. uh you're speaking to one who has experienced both what we call of course the ordinary form of the mass and the extraordinary form of the mass and there seems to be a discontinuity between them. Mhm. Correct. Yes. And so the question is then well how is the nora a continuation of the tradition that has been passed on to us? That's the question. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of the time I think your your one's experience of discontinuity in the ordinary form of the mass comes from how it's celebrated often and and it's just not this but it's part of it. Often the ordinary form isn't celebrated in a dignified manner if you will. there's a laxadasical attitude brought to the liturgy which shouldn't be there and it's unfortunate and so when that attitude is brought to the liturgy as a whole it of course leads to the appearance of a discontinuity and so I does that make some sense okay yeah but I'm saying it's not all that but I I think that's a large part part of it okay how one celebrates This is a homaly series on the reform of the reform. So I'm also of the mind that there are aspects of the norous order or the ordinary form that could use reform.

Reforms carried out after the second Vatican council. Some things called for by the church fathers of the council weren't even followed. They were ignored. And then one could pose and debate that some reforms went too far. And and so if we could fix some of those things, this is my premise, okay? Then we would have a more of a continuity between one's experience of the ordinary form and the extraordinary form. And so that's my premise. So it it can appear again that the ordinary form is in discontinuity with tradition when it's celebrated irreverently. Moreover, there are some aspects in the ordinary form that could use reform that would help it uh be in more continuity uh with the with the past with the tradition passed on to us. So you you see the abrupt change that happened more so because of re reforms that happened after Vatican council that weren't necessarily recommended here. That's correct. Okay. So the follow-up question that I have to that is this then okay tradition is something that also uh you receive something from the previous generation to the current generation. Uh I mentioned doctrine. It's pretty clear in doctrine like we we we believe what we believe because the previous generation handed it on to us and they received it from a previous generation all the way going back. It is a beautiful thing right back to Jesus and Jesus and the apostles. So in that continuation of doctrinal tradition, no one came along and said we have a new doctrine because that would be a rupture of the past. It would be faithful to what Jesus has passed on to us. We we could have a development of the doctrine. Correct. Okay. Yeah. To that point. Yes. But no one says now we have a new doctrine. But when it comes to the liturgy, we sort of have this all of a sudden now we have a new liturgy. Uh because they they named it literally after the second battle council. They they called it Norvous Ordo which means new order. suggesting that this thing that we have now wasn't here before because we use it. We say it's new. And that's kind of what the the word new suggests, right? So, in light of that, if if if tradition is something that's supposed to be handed on from our previous generation to the current generation, how do you how do you rectify this like the new the newness of this mass, the the new order, the novasordo? Another good question. So the the term novice ordo is in fact not the normative way the church describes our current mass. It's in fact I think I'd have to do a little more research but I think it's only found in two places since the 60s. uh Pope Paul V 6 makes use of the term novous ordo in a Wednesday audience soon after the council and then I believe Pope Benedict and his magisterium they use it once in a document on the formation of priests. Other than that the the normative word they use is the mass of Pope Paul V 6th. Pope Paul 6 was the pope when this mass was proclamated and made known. And so the church doesn't really use that term. It it's a it's a term that's often used in common parlance when people talk about liturggical matters, the old mass and the new mass. It's one of the the terms used, but the church normatively doesn't use that term improperly. So, because you you point to a a problem with that term. Yeah. Right. It points to something new indicated, oh well, is is the old gotten rid of kind of thing and now it points to a discontinuity, a rupture. Yeah. And yes, this is why the church doesn't use that term to describe it because it doesn't properly describe that the mass because the ordinary form is not a rupture. We can't see it as a rupture to say we we have to be very careful to say that the no pardon me I'm getting we always want to that the ordinary form of the mass I'll get to that term is a rupture because then we're saying we're getting into the realm of it not being valid. We're getting it into the realm of it being not a legitimate form of the mass when it clearly is. Are there parts of it? Are there practices that people partake in concerning the ordinary form of the mass that are rupture? I I I could agree to that, but we can't say that the entire thing is. So, back to my point, yeah, the church does not use Novasuro to describe the mass as we have it. It uses the term the mass of Pope Paul the 6th. Previous iterations of the mass did the same. the mass of Pope Pas the 12th, so on and so forth. Okay. I think what's a much a more of a helpful way to describe the mass is how Pope Benedict envisioned it when he said we have one right of the mass in two forms. We have the ordinary form and the extraordinary form. This does a number of things. It it eases this tension and it creates an a a space by which by which these two things can coexist and and so during this during this talk I'm going to this conversation can I'm going to try to use those terms ordinary for extraordinary for but I meant myself but I I I think that that that's the best way to describe the current situation we are in the church it's a strange place. This has never happened before and time will only tell how this will all be resolved, right? And how the Holy Spirit will guide us. But I believe the reform of the reform is part of it. Letting the extraordinary form enrich the ordinary form. The ordinary form kind of mutually enrich the extraordinary form, too. And we'll see what the Holy Spirit does. I I think Benedict had it right when when he gave us uh those those those guidelines and guidance. So okay, I I think that's more helpful way to describe the mass using those terms. Okay. You you know that uh I as a family we attended the extraordinary form the traditional Latin mass for a year. One year um and it was a really wonderful experience. I remember the first time going uh and being struck by the mystery and the prayerfulness, the reverence, the the music. That's something that just struck me as well. Um just even the kids and how they participated. Uh none of the parents, there was a whole bunch of little kids there. None of the parents were trying to entertain their kids. You know, we we do that sometimes. They're like, "Here's a car, you know, be quiet. But it was just like a really good example for us to experience that and it was so different. So I as a Roman Catholic going to the traditional Latin mass walking in felt so outside of my previous experience it felt like I was going to I don't want to say different religion but almost like a different different right like I would go to the Byzantine right which we have our our sister and our brother-in-law are raising their kids in the Byzantine right so we've been to divine liturgy and that's beautiful too but it It's it's a stark difference between the Byzantine right and the ordinary form of the mass and now so that's how I it felt like it was like this is almost like a different right. How how would you respond to that kind of perspective? We'll get back to talking to Father Dan in just a second. But first, if you've been blessed by this video, could you help us out in a few simple ways? Number one, like and share this video. YouTube's going to see that. Then push this video out to a larger audience. So that's something you could do. Number two, could you pray for us? We're always in need of grace and we would greatly appreciate your prayers. And number three, if it is possible, supporting our mission at ken andjanel.com. Your support makes it possible for us to keep on producing videos just like the one you're watching. You know, all our content is free, but it's not free to make. Every contribution really does make a difference on our side. So, back to Father Dan. So, that's how I it felt like it was like this is almost like a different right. How how would you respond to that kind of perspective? Not saying that it is, but that's I I don't know how else to express myself with that. So I I think it is a legitimate experience. It's an experience that one has. If one attends the extraordinary form of the mass and then attends the ordinary form at a typical parish, there's a great there's a contrast. There is a contrast. And so your your experience is a real one and your experience does point to the problem I think that you and I are trying to discuss here today and this why reform of the reform is needed. The ordinary form of the mass can be celebrated in such a way where there wouldn't be that contrast. If there was some inclusion of Latin the that the mass was celebrated at orient these issues we'll discuss. If there was the option in the use of altar rails and communion kneeling and the use of chant, you'd be very hardressed, I think, to see a difference between the two just looking with your eyes. I I would posit that. I I would put that forward to you. And uh yeah, well, I would I would agree. Well, that's partly what drew us to the parish, our lead of Lur prior to you becoming the pastor there. It was Father Jeff and he had already started doing some of these changes. And it was there was a lot of Latin, for example, like, oh, this is just coming from our experience of the traditional Latin mass. People, what really struck me was people kneeling at a communion rail, receiving the Eucharist. Um just my my initial thought of of receiving the communion this way it just seems like the Lord is worthy of this posture of reception. Not that you can't another way but it just seems fitting and it just but more so to that was the uh the influence of that example on my children regarding the real presence in the Eucharist with dad's kneeling something important is happening. We stand in line for so many things in our culture like getting tickets from ticket master like getting fast food. We have lines. This is not the same kind of thing. We're kneeling and we're receiving. So our Lord, so when we went to our lady of lords, that was something that really drew me was because of the reception of the eukarist and how that was done, kneeling on the tongue at the communion rail. Um there was a lot of things and I to your point I I agree that there was there was ator orient was another one. It was all it was very familiar coming from the traditional atmass yet there was there was still a distinction uh that was but it was beautiful and and but you could see how this that came from the other that this followed that. Yes, I do. I I I do. But the the problem I guess I have in all of this is this is so not the typical experience across I won't speak to the United States because we're Canadian across this country. It's so far so far. Hence the need for reform of the reform and I hope people know what I mean by that too. Let's just revisit that. there was a reform done after the second Vatican council and some of those reforms either went too far or some of the things called for by the council never took place. So trying to revisit that after a number of decades and and there's theologians and liturgists that are calling us to do that. You know, now now that we have some space to breathe, let's take some time to have these discussions, these debates in respect. We don't have to attack each other and let's just chat about them and and all will be well. As St. Julian of Norwich said, we will see in the comment section. Um, let's bring in Cardinal Burke into this. Uh, he he's somebody that really uh values the liturgy done well. uh came across a quote from him and I want your thoughts on it. He says this, I don't question its validity regarding the novasordo in any way. There is a continuity but it's so strained. You don't take something so rich in beauty and start stripping away the beautiful elements without having a negative effect. Okay. Your reaction to that? So his his eminence has great experience with both the extraordinary form and the ordinary form of the mass. So I respect that and I would I would kind of lean into some of the thoughts he's saying. If I would like him to if I could pick his ear a little bit or chat with him, I said I would ask him, you know, what are the are some of those things, right? I would ask him that. And but I I think his his words that quote they're really again they they point to the your experience that that you've had and and many others have had. Why does there seem to be such a contrast between these these two forms? Mhm. And so I like what he says it is in continuity but there's some strain. And so my question to him well you know where do you see it straining? And again, there there are some things in the ordinary form of the mass that that I see that could use some work or some things that could be reintroduced that we've forgotten about. And uh that might be pointing to that strain that that word he uses there. So I'm not sure if I'm dancing around your question or answering it or not, but that's fine. I won't push it any further. Uh uh but I do have a question regarding you said the uh sometimes we have you warned about a preoccupation with an antiquity and a hunger for novelty. Can you point to examples of these two extremes in the church today? Yeah. Yeah. I mentioned a few things in the homaly but but and it's good to be aware of them. antiquity. We see the danger of antiquity in our liturgies and and sometimes this this practice of celebrating mass around a table. You know, the Lord Jesus instituted the Eucharist around a table at the last supper. So, you know, we should do that, too. So, let's just have a table to celebrate a Eucharist. Oh, yeah. And not an altar. Yeah. Another one would be house masses in homes, right? uh you know we we we don't really need a church today. Let's just celebrate mass anywhere we want. Just a not paying attention to the the proper place where mass should be celebrated giving that a dignity. Can I follow up with that? Sure. Is is that um can there be exceptions to that? Cuz I'm sure lots of people are saying, "Oh, I had father over and we or there was a youth event and we had mass at this camp but wasn't in the church or I don't know there's a special meeting an anniversary in somebody's farm. So hey, take that take an example. Somebody's anniversary on a farm, they want a mass. What what do you say to that? You say go go go to the church. Yeah. Most of the time for a number of reasons. The the mass it's so dignifi it's our highest form of worship. So it we should be using the buildings built for it. We we I mean we build buildings for it, churches. Yeah. And and so we should give the masses its dignity, it's due another thing is it's good to have when you know when there's an anniversary when there's a a family reunion, join the parish community, right? Don't don't have a a private kind of a mass thing where it's good to again join it in the parish community and again give the masses dignity. It's just very prudent and gives again the mass its due respect when it's celebrated in the space that that it's intended for. When you celebrate mass outside of its space, it can tend to abuses. It just can you don't have the proper you don't have patents. You don't it's complicated. And there are of course exceptions. There are exceptions. Very rarely do I celebrate mass outside of a church. Okay? And many dasceses, I shouldn't speak for all, but many dasceses have policies concerning that uh limiting or or safeguarding that the the celebration of mass masses and homes. I I'm embarrassed to tell you this. You know, like I I from 1999 until 2020, I was speaking full-time leading retreats, parish missions, conferences. I can't tell you how many times I've been invited to speak at an event where mass was not celebrated in the church for retreats settings. It was just so common practice in Canada. Are you saying celebrated in gyms? Celebrated at a retreat center in the bush somewhere. celebrated in a barn, celebrated in a hall because you can't move all the equipment into the church, uh, celebrated outside of a of a a hall. Yep. So, I think there are circumstances where that can be done and you do at the with with the permission of the local bishop, right? They they guide these things too. Who knows? when I'm going in. I just assume like on retreats that might be a time where you can but also again ensuring that everything is in place and needed to celebrate the holy mass but the ordinary place we celebrate mass is in the church. Okay. Okay. Full stop. Okay. Full stop. So preoccupation with antiquity. I'm not done yet with antiquity. Okay. you know, Jesus celebrated instituted the Eucharist, you know, probably not with gold gold chalicees and whatnot. So, yeah, you know, let's use a clay vessel or let's use a a glass or or kitchen wear for the celebration of mass. That that would be antiquity. Let's use something a little more humble and and on par with what our Lord would have used. That would that again would be uh and that that that happened after the council in the 70s and the 80s. The Vatican corrected that. So okay. So you're saying no clay vessels. No it can't no it it can't be anything porous. Anything porous. So metal is the best use. I'd have to go back and read the document redemption on a sacramental. But listen just what has been used in the past what has been passed on to us. It holds the precious blood of our Lord. Let's use something dignified. Let's give our best to God. That's what the church has done in the past. So, you know what? Let's continue doing that. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. That's antiquity. I didn't finish your question, but does that make some sense? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Do you want to go on to hunger for novelty? Yes. Okay. So, what would that look like in a modern parish today? lurggical dancing, inserting things into the liturgy that don't have its that don't have a place. That's really novelty. Okay. Yeah. The list is endless then. Yeah. For that. And then novelty. There was a there was a novelty after the second Vatican council where some countries were writing their own eukaristic prayers. We have the Roman cannon. We since have had other eucharistic prayers written by the church for our use, approved by the church, but but countries were were just writing eucharistic prayers on their own. We've been using the Roman cannon in the church at least from the year 500. And so that's a novelty uh just writing your own eucharistic prayer because you want something new and novel to fit the modern context that you know and and so the Vatican did did put pressure on that to stop. Uh some of the harm was already done. We can just discuss that at a later time. But yeah, novelty just wanting to insert things into the mass that aren't there. Yeah. Okay. Okay. the poker mat. I'm not sure if I I think I mentioned that in the homaly where where people design music that is novel. So they developed the mass setting to poker music. This is a thing and and I would posit that's a novelty that that the the mass setting was never meant to be set to poker music. The mass setting is it should be a solemn. We can talk about music another time but chant is appropriate and then those musical settings approved by the church and okay but but a poker mass setting is a novelty. Okay, sounds like a great abuse. Yeah, novelty toned down that word. And if I may say something regarding both this danger of novelty and antiquity, both of these dangers hold sometimes what might be called a romanticized view or an idealized view of of our present day and age and the ancient day that those were the times these are the times when the Holy Spirit is really working. So, you know, let let's let's let the Holy Spirit work in new ways and novel ways and we'll put it into the mass. And the Holy Spirit was really working in the ancient day. But but somehow the Holy Spirit, you know, didn't lead in the middle ages and and so, you know, the the some of the things that developed there organically developed in the mass, you know, we the mass got fossilized and old and we need to invigorate it with new life. And I would propose there was sometimes a a negative view of that of of that time in the church where we have to say the Holy Spirit works in all ages and times of the church and we have to give it due respect and we have to give veneration to antiquity to the ancient church but the Holy Spirit continued to work after that. Right? And so anyways, within those two dangers is a romanticized view of the modern world. I think that we're living in the best time ever. The Holy Spirit's really working. There's nothing bad or we're not paying attention to the dangers in a romanticized view and idealized view of the ancient world that that's only what matters and we can kind of forget what's in between. No, that's not Catholic. Catholic is the spirit leads in every age and every age builds upon the next. Are there things that perhaps need to be corrected from age to age? Sure. But we use the term organic development. I I I've used that term a number of times and so it's a complex term but one could use the analogy of a tree that grows. That's how the liturgy should grow. So in the beginning of the church, it started small and then it grew fast and that's often what happens and and so changes happened at a a quicker pace in the early church to the liturgy as it developed. But but then what happens to a plant as it as it matures slows down. Yeah. And to you too, you know, you you you haven't grown too much. Well, at least not up times out, right? We come from the flower of youth to the depth of maturity though. And so the growth slows down, the changes slowed down. This is how many of the liturgists who are in favor of the reform of the form say we this is how we need to regard the liturgy. And and so any changes which happen have to honor the the internal guidelines of the organism of the liturgy. And so we do harm when we cut off a limb that we need. Uh, can we pluck a a branch or a leaf here and there and make changes to something that maybe wasn't supposed to be there? Sure. But to to lop off things that are integral integral to that organism, the liturgy, the tree, is harmful. I think that's a beautiful analogy. Do you think we've had some uh trimming of limbs? Yes. I I think some are in danger of being of being cut off in danger. This is why we're talking about some of these things. This is why we're talking and we will continue. Yes. Uh we'll wrap it up here unless you have one final thought or or are we good to I think we're good, Ken. Unless you have another No, this is this is good. Thanks for the hard questions today. Appreciate your answers and how sensitive you answer them. Again, I just want to reiterate when it comes to discussion on the liturgy, there there can be strong feelings on either side. And I think an an open discussion on these things is a good and healthy thing. And uh the pointing of fingers and the labeling of conservative and liberal on one side or the other is not helpful. But just let's chat about these things. you know, it's been 40, 50 years since these changes have occurred and and let's have a talk and so and let the Holy Spirit guide us and lead us and all will be well. Well, thanks for talking with me. Great. Thanks, Ken.

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