From Bricklayer to Sacred Artist: A Convert’s Story

Why does sacred art matter—especially in the journey of a Catholic convert?

In this moving episode, Ken speaks with Derek, a Catholic convert and stone carver, about his unexpected journey from Evangelicalism to Catholicism… and from bricklaying to creating breathtaking sacred art that now adorns sanctuaries.

🎨 Interested in commissioning sacred art?  
Contact Derek for custom stone or wood carvings: Derek@boldtmasonryltd.ca

Hear Derek share how beauty led him deeper into the mystery of the Eucharist, and why the Church’s artistic tradition isn’t just decoration—it’s a declaration of love for God. From the image of the descending dove to the biblical story of the woman who anoints Jesus with costly perfume, this conversation is a powerful reflection on how beauty evangelizes.

Transcript

Derek. Hey. Hey. Welcome back. Thank you, Ken. It's a pleasure. It is a pleasure. I'm enjoying this. Um, today, let's talk about uh sacred art, why sacred art matters, or if it matters. Um, I know in our previous episode, we talked about that you're a convert to Catholicism. Mhm. So maybe to start with, I'm just curious on your thoughts on sacred art and how they've evolved as an evangelical then going to being an Anglican and then to Catholicism. Do you when you look back at your journey, do you see that your perspective has changed on this? Yeah, that's a good question. Um um yeah, I I think I've been forced to to actually think about it to be honest with you. I like I said, I did go to uh to a bit of an art school. I trained as a stone carver and uh and so obviously I had an appreciation for uh for the craft for being an artisan and and making uh things like that and you know my younger brother's quite a an accomplished musician. My older brother was an animator. He drew you know cartoons for a number of years and so like creativity was sort of like in the water growing up you know uh but and I pushed pause and right now people are commissioning you to do Catholic sacred art. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, this this is this is where you are right now. I'm as shocked as anybody. I am more shocked than anyone actually. And your stuff is beautiful. We'll get to that point. But so, so forgive the interruption. So, yeah, no problem. No problem. So, coming to think about it. Yeah. You know, my younger brother being a musician, my older brother, you know, very talented, you know, at drawing and things like that, do, you know, did cartoons and things like this. Um, and I was always more of like the the hands-on, you know, construction artisan, wood, wood and stone kind of guy, which was maybe a little less directly, you know, thought of as artistic. So, you know, I always liked doing things that were creative, but honestly, I really didn't think too much about it. I I wanted to get like interesting jobs to do because as a creative person, you like the process is really rewarding and I really enjoy doing it. But yeah, you know, does it matter? Why does it matter? You know, why is beauty uh an important an important thing to to con to consider? Uh never crossed my mind really like in in the more abstract and and it was something that I was sort of surprised how how engaged a lot of Catholics were on that issue. Um, and you know, I was a Catholic for a number of years and uh, famously Bishop Baron, he talks a lot about beauty and a lot of people I was hanging out with were talking about beauty and uh, I really didn't I really didn't do much stone carving anymore. In fact, I probably couldn't have told you where my where my chisels were. I was really basically making a living as a brick layer and and that's that's how I paid the bills, you know. I I you know that skill set was like you know somewhere in the past and maybe I'll I'll do hobbies when I'm you know 75 years old and do my own tombstone or something but uh you know it was off the radar is is what I'm saying and then uh and then I went to a workshop with uh a guy named Jonathan Pio you know some local guys organized to have him come and do a icon carving workshop. It was in wood. I'd never worked in wood, but you know, I I, you know, kind of got into a bit of a groove working in in wood again and and kind of people recognized that I had a little bit of talent and and uh I don't know, just sort of snowballed from there. And and and like I say, I'm I'm more shocked than anybody how much how much people how much interest there was among people for sacred art in in kind of Catholic circles. and and uh you know within a few years I was renovating a a sanctuary at our parish. So and and it's uh and a renovation is not really a accurate word for what happened. It's like a beautifification. Oh man. It is. It's a renovation is just like you fix things up. It transformed the sanctuary. Yeah. Yeah. And uh and it's a it's a beautiful thing. And so you worked on that for quite a while like I mean it was still not quite yeah there's still a few elements to do. Um but yeah we oh man I think we started physically doing the work uh probably when CO was starting to break out I think. So I don't even know what year that is. But yeah we probably spent the better part of of uh three winters doing that doing that work there. So there's yeah there's a lot of work to it. And uh that was sort of what got me starting to think about okay why does this why does this matter so much to people and you know in in a way I'm the biggest skeptic myself you know so do you think it matters? Yeah I think that I think that it's a valid question and obviously I do think it matters. I think that sacred art has always mattered. But but the very fact that uh that that that's a that that's a live question, you know, why does it matter? Does this matter? I mean, like I say, this is this is replaying in the back of my mind every time I'm in my shop creating something. It's just like, wow, I could be doing something more practical. I could be using my time in to achieve a quantifiable good of some kind, you know, something measurable. I'm a Catholic convert. I, you know, I was a Protestant and like, you know, the Protestant work ethic, it it's sewn deep into me, right? Like this idea of like we have to be practical, practical, practical. And especially and I mean where we live, it's a is this is this was this was farmland, right? And and like the the whole farming, you know, settlement, break the land, like like hard labor was was among the highest of virtues. And you know, it it kind of it still exists kind of in the cultural consciousness of of our place and time. But anyway, it's deep in me and I'm skeptical of it. But does it matter? And and as I've kind of looked into it, I think it's remarkable that for in my opinion like the the ultimate image we have of the sacred artist is where where uh Mary anoints Jesus at Bethany. And what's fascinating about it, you know, she she takes Jesus is at at the table and and she comes in and it says she brings in this alabaster jar of spikenard. You know, whatever that is, presumably it's, you know, great stuff.

It's worth 9 months wages according to the gospel, right? This this very uh you know, this very expensive thing, this this very high value thing. and she breaks it and and in some of the gospels she puts it on his head and in John's gospel she puts it on his feet. But in in those three gospels where we have that story and they and they all come right at the beginning of Jesus's passion. This kind of marks the point where now Jesus is going to go to the cross. This woman kind of starts almost is like the one book end to it. And in all three gospels it's it's very interesting. You have a response. Sometimes it's in the mouth of Judas. Sometimes it's in the mouth of all the disciples. Their first response is what a waste, right? Like what a waste that this woman has wasted 9 months wages on this spikenard and and poured it out on Jesus's feet. Right. And and for me, that's the ultimate image of sacred art of the sacred artist. What you're doing is Yeah. Like especially working in stone, like I blow a lot of labor on a piece, right? Like I've got a I got one piece of stone in my shop. I I've spent 6 months on it. It there's a,000 hours of labor in this thing, right? And there's something I think even in in creative people even certainly in myself that that voice is there you know why the waste why are you wasting your time on this right and uh all the disciples say it particularly Judas and and you know Jesus's response is the is the classic text for for you know Catholic artists down the centuries it's like leave her alone she's done a beautiful work for me right It's a beautiful thing. Kalon is the word there. Like she's she's performed a beautiful work. And so it's not a tangible product that she's making, but like it's almost like a piece of dramatic art that she's that she has sacrificed this high value thing and poured it out on his feet. Right? In John's gospel, Jesus goes further and he says, you know, she's prepared my body for the burial. Right? And I've and I've I've meditated on that. like I you know you you know I think your son's going to be baptized fairly soon he'll be crisismated with anointing oil and when when my children have been crisismated with that anointing oil you can smell for days right and here's Jesus at the beginning of his journey to the cross this woman pours out this outrageously expensive perfume on him and just imagine perhaps the only comfort Jesus had on the cross other than his mother being there he smelt the perfume. This beautiful thing would would still be in his nostrils as he hung on the cross, right? And you know, who cares? What a waste. You know, give me quantifiable outcomes. The money could have given been given to the poor is what Jud Judas says. And it's like, well, yeah, I I you know, I could I could spend six months working on something and earn money and I there's all kinds of charitable things that you could give it away to, right? So, why does it matter that your insight I think is so beautiful cuz Jesus she does this extravagant thing. Uhhuh. And she's Jesus's response is she did something beautiful for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cannot we say that with art? Yeah. Yeah. Jesus is pleased. Why do we do it? First, we want to glorify God to please him. Yeah. Yeah. So, I I waste thousands of hours. Uh-huh. Because I want to please you, Lord. Yeah. Yeah. But I imagine that when And I've seen particularly uh the dove that you did. I just think it's just so it is beautiful. You made uh marble look like feathers.

Yeah. Yeah. And they look fluffy. Yeah, that marble looks fluffy.

And it's up in the sanctuary in our parish, right? And it's it's overlooking the altar. Mhm. Well, first of all, what's talk about that significance? The dove. Okay. What is what is what is the significance of that image? Uh I mean, where do we see the dove in the life of Jesus? We see the dove descending him at upon him at his baptism. And it's a sign of the Holy Spirit, right? But even before that, uh, when we were talking about what we were going to put in that in that place and and the idea of having the dove that represents the Holy Spirit there for me, I wanted to I wanted to create a, you know, an image of the Holy Spirit that actually looked like it was descending on the altar, right? So the spirit descends in the form of a dove on Jesus at his baptism. At the same time, we see the Holy Spirit descending, if you will, on Mary at the enunciation where Mary asks the angel. The angel announces to her that she's going to, you know, give birth to the son of God, right? God's son is going to be conceived in her womb. And as anyone, I think, reasonably would, she says, "Well, how can this be?" You know, and the angel says, "Well, the power of the most high will overshadow you, and the Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the child to be born will be called the son of God." Right? Yes. And and so, how is it that Christ becomes present in the womb of the blessed virgin Mary? Well, by the power of the Holy Spirit is what the angel Gabriel tells tells Mary, right? At the same time, I mean, if we pay attention to what's going on at the mass, I mean, the priest asks for the same Holy Spirit to come upon the gifts of the bread and the wine so that they might become for us, the priest says, the body and blood of Christ. Right? The same Holy Spirit that made Christ present in the in the womb of the blessed virgin Mary is the Holy Spirit that we're asking for at every mass to descend upon these gifts so they may become the same Jesus Christ, the same present Christ. Right? So for me it was, you know, this is amazing. I and and uh I really wanted to to give the appearance to that sculpture that you know the dove wasn't just up there representing this that or the other thing but that it was focusing in on the altar and you know we call it the epiclesis I suppose where the priest is asking for the holy spirit upon the gifts. So and if I remember right when I was in your workshop you described the the position of the dove coming down as though it's just about to land. Yeah. And you you'd studied a lot of birds. Yeah. And capturing that actual moment right before they touch down. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Like how they flare their tail feathers and everything else, you know? You and and birds aren't holding a position for you. They you have like a fraction of a second. It's kind of like kids. Yeah. That's right. Family picture. Yeah. Yeah. I've tried to draw my children before and it's just like, would you hold still?

Well, when it comes to like the beautifification of of our parish, it's it is it does something to a person's faith. And I'll I'll use my son as an example, Pascal. He's 2 years old. He's just starting to learn and talk. And so, he says a couple words, but when we come into mass and we we are in our pew, I'll say um during mass, I'll whisper, "Where's Uncle Dan?" Because Uncle Dan's our priest, so it's Father Dan. And he points there's and then often times he then he'll say on his own and he points up and it says birdie birdie right on I'm like Pascal it's a dove points up birdie birdie but of all that that's captured him it's he sees someone he recognizes his uncle our priest and he points to the birdie and it's a teaching thing. Mhm. And I think we have lost the sacred art within the last number of years within the church. U you know we've whitewashed our sanctuaries. They the churches that were built weren't built beautiful. They may have been built practical. Mhm. Uh but they weren't built in a beautiful way. And so now there's this movement and I think you've recognized it since coming into the church and I've recognized it in my travels of taking parishes and making them more beautiful through sacred art or through a beautifification of the sanctuary. Mhm. Which elevates one's soul to God. Yeah. Um so I look at my son and I think beauty evangelizes him. If it was just whitewashed, what would draw his attention to the front? Mhm. No sacred images, no statues, just plain white walls. What draws him to the front besides the person? He has a short attention span. He's sure. So then we create children's ministry and we take him to the back of the church and we remove them from the holy sacrifice of the mass. Which we don't do in our parish, right? The children are there. Yeah. And I appreciate the beauty of that sanctuary because it draws you. But when you look at art, and I'm sure you'd agree, that when you look at it, you just don't look at it, but you maybe look through it. Mhm. It's designed to point you to something beyond what you see in your eyes. Yeah. Yeah. And if we and I'll circle back to this, but we talk about like uh these transcendentals is if I pronounced that correctly, of goodness, truth and beauty. Yeah. That Aristotle and Plato would talk about and then later writers and great minds like Augustine and and St. Thomas Aquinas and others. Sometimes you throw in other ones. I was reading uh Father Spitzer. He's a Jesuit and I like reading him. He talks about transcendentals of in addition to those three of unity and love. Mhm. So one of them though that we typically agree on is beauty. And these transcendentals they're attributes of a state of being. Mhm. So what beauty is is well who is good? Who is true? Who is beautiful? Mhm. Is God. Yeah. Yeah. And we are made in the image and likeness of God. Yeah. So in every person Mhm. we see goodness, we see truth, we see beauty. Yeah. And the moment that we start for example not appreciating beauty, I think we stop appreciating the human person. Mhm. So when you look at cultures that don't have uh a love for beauty, they lose the love of the person. You look at the communist mindset. Mhm. Communis, communism, they don't produce beautiful buildings. They're kind of ugly. No, it's ugly. Yeah, they're ugly. But but then at least why are they ugly, I think, because they they they don't believe in the beautiful one. Yeah. Yeah. And and for them everything is quantifiable, right? Like they are the ultimate Judas in a sense like you know why would you do anything that doesn't directly contribute to the poor, right? That's Judas's argument against uh Mary at Bethany is like this is a waste because it doesn't tangibly contribute to this. Yeah. But I'm sorry. No. No. But that's but that's that's good. And so then we have the beauty beauty that points us Mhm. to the beautiful one. Yeah. Yeah. And then if we observe our experience of this, we we we're aware that we like beauty. Mhm. But then I you probably look at what you've created and you could probably see the imperfections. Oh yeah. Yeah. And I was like, well, why does that bother you? Because you have a concept of perfect beauty. Yeah. The perfection of beauty is ingrained within the human heart because we're made in the image and likeness of God. And one of his attributes is beauty. Mhm. Yeah. So there's something that cries out within us. Yeah. That wants beauty because it wants God. Yeah. So this is one reason why I think beauty in our faith actually really makes really really does matter. It does matter. Yeah. Yeah. I you make me think here of uh of kind of probably the most the most famous prayer of St. Augustine in his confessions, right? Oh lately have I loved thee. Oh beauty so ancient and so new. Lately have I loved thee. You know, and that's one translation of it. But basically St. Augustine is lamenting about how long it took for him to come to God. But he's he's saying, "Oh, beauty so ancient and so new." He's calling God beauty, right? He's using the name of beauty to describe God. And then he and then he starts going through how God has broken through all of his senses. I was deaf, but you cried to me, you know, and like I was blind and you've broken through my darkness, you know. I was I I inhaled your fragrance and I tasted you and now my my soul burns for your peace. For St. Augustine, you know, it's it's it's probably one of the most beautiful paragraphs in the whole confession is is when he finally reflects on like how he's finally come to God and and for him, God is is the ancient beauty, but the but the beauty who is both ancient and new, right? And and God has like broken through the the the deadness of all of his senses. And isn't that that's exactly how we perceive the beautiful through the arts is is with our our eyes and our ears and our nose and and you know Augustine is drawing on all of that, right? God is beautiful. And I think that's there's a vulnerability to to beauty to the beautiful uh in that it doesn't punch you in the face, right? It's subtle. That's what's going on in in this story of of Mary at Bethany is that, you know, it's much more tangible to take, you know, these monetary these monetary goods and provide them to the poor. You know, that's that's tangible. That's quantifiable. But something about what this woman has done for Jesus is of a value that transcends that, right? The beautiful work. I think we use beauty to mark off the things that we truly love. I I think that's part of it. You look at the things that that we hold to be truly sacred and that's another way of saying the things that we truly love and and we will always find that human beings are beautifying those parts of their life, you know, and and you hear you hear talk, you know, everybody has a god and you know, it's whatever you know, whatever's of the highest value in your life, that's your god, that's your idol. And you know, God should be number one obviously. But if you want to if you want to kind of discern what somebody considers the ultimate value, their ultimate love, look at the things that they beautify, right? And and I think that's that's what's going on. Like like look at the moments in a human life where we apply beauty. You know, I I just finished carving a tombstone for someone, right? Producing a a grave marker. The reason that you that you mark the place where that body is buried is because there's something sacred there. That's that's someone that's someone's parent. That's someone's spouse. That's someone who is loved. And I'm creating this thing and it and people want it to look a certain way and they're going to spend, you know, a a significant amount of money to to mark a grave. What a waste. Judas could say, "What a waste. Why would you ever put a grave marker where your loved ones are buried? You know, then what are they doing for you now? Yeah. You know, there's there's no payoff. They're unproductive, right? No, it's like we use beautiful things to mark the things that are sacred, the things that are worthy of our love on your wedding day. I mean, you pull out all the stops. I mean, you beautify. You want to be in a beautiful church. You want to be dressed beautifully. And and nobody questions. and and and who would ever say to their wife, "Oh, this is just a big waste." You know, why are we wasting all of our money on on a wedding dress when we can go to a justice of the peace? It's just like, "Guess what? You'll never get married if you say that to your wife, you know?" But I think these are cases where people are investing in things that are beautiful because it's an expression of the things they hold to be of the highest value and and to be the things that they love, right? We use the finest things that we can create to kind of mark out what is sacred in our lives. And and and I guess when it comes to things like a like a sanctuary or a church, this kind of brings me to this idea of of integrity, you know, when I when I thought about this topic, like why why does art why does sacred art matter? And I think it I think it has to do with with integrity, right? in in if if we believe what we say that we believe. If we believe in God the Father Almighty, if we believe in Jesus Christ his son, if we believe in the in the Holy Spirit, if we believe that he was crucified for us and rose from the dead, if we believe that we come to mass and we consume the body and the blood of Jesus, if that's what's happening there, you know, what does that tangibly look like? Like if if you're going to your wedding, you don't you know you you don't just like pick up the the clothes on the on on the basement floor and and just show up, right? Yes. You also dress up on your wedding day because your future bride deserves that. Yeah. Exactly. Cuz she's worthy of it. She's worthy of that. And so when it comes to the sanctuary, isn't Jesus, isn't God worth more than whitewashed walls? When he's giving in the context of what he's giving us is the greatest gift that has been revealed to us is body, blood, soul, divinity, the source, and summit of our faith. Shouldn't the surroundings Yeah. also be offering something back to God saying, "We glorify you. We bless you. We" And so this is the work of our hands. Yeah, this is the best that we can give. Here's these sacred images that speak to your greatness and speak and express our thanksgiving. And I think that's a good point like there's something Yeah, there's something expressive about, you know, giving our best, where do we give our best, you know, to whom do we give our best and when? And and I to you your you said we give beauty to what we value, right? It doesn't but I it's true but I think there's something else. Uh although we give beauty to what we love when it's beautiful we start to love it. Yeah. Yeah. So a really tangible experience is maybe your wife when you you gazed upon her. I gazed upon my wife. What's the first thing that captured your attention for a man? Mhm. It's a beautiful woman. Mhm. Mhm. Some might say, "Well, you're being shallow." Well, when you first meet someone, that's all you got to go on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Uh-huh. So, the beauty captures you. I remember we were at a a party recently, um Christmas party. Mhm. And we were going to car We talked about maybe after carpulling, but I just took out the most beautiful woman to to to supper. Yeah. And I was confused. I'm like, but I take out the most beautiful woman out there, you know. And for clarity, they're not the same woman. They're not the same woman. And that's how it ought to be. For the sake of peace, we will not uh you know, we can disagree. We won't disagree.

But be beauty causes also you to love. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And so going back to sacred art. Mhm. Mhm. It speaks to something. It's true. It glorifies God. We've talked about this. But it also causes us to love. Yeah, it does. Yeah. And that's so you look at a beautiful painting or a statue and you fix your mind upon it. You you're drawn to what is beyond and you start to love. Yeah. And this is why again I think it's so important that we have beautiful sanctuaries. Mhm. Mhm. Because it will help people love the Eucharist. Yeah. Yep. Because what does it say if it's not beautiful? Yeah. I'm like ah Yeah. Well, I I think in some ways it says this doesn't really matter, right? You know, and and I mean it doesn't have to like you don't have to rebuild, you know, St. Peter's Basilica everywhere, you know, like you can have very humble circumstances where it becomes a a beautiful sanctuary, right? I mean, where are we giving our best? That's the question that that kind of haunts me. Like if if there's an integrity between what we say is the most valuable thing, the thing most worthy of our worship and of our best is God. Where are we actually applying our best? Right? There's a there's a reason why banks were always built out of stone and and ornamented and everything else because they understood this principle of integrity. Like the building had to communicate to the public that this was a solid institution, that your money was going to be safe here, and that this was like a worthy place for you to entrust, you know, your your worldly goods, right? And that's you look at the architecture of banks and they're built in a certain architectural style using certain materials to communicate to the public. We'll take care of your money. Things are going to, you know, you let us have your money, right? M and so if banks understand that like the visual appearance communicates you know a transcendent principle I think we have to understand that that's why the Catholic Church has such a a rich artistic tradition because you know our sanctuaries should communicate at least in some way this is the most worthy thing in the entire world that we're doing here like this is you know the integrity between what we say we believe and how it is manifest I think is important. And we're not trusting our money. We're trusting our soul. Yeah. This is giving our life. Yeah. Jesus, you're going to save me from from sin and death and and potentially hell and you know, here's some leftover carpet that I tore over in my basement, you know. Yeah. Uh but uh good point. So yeah, the integrity I think is important. So let's wrap this up. I want people to know that you are available to do commission work and they can reach out to you. I'll put your contact information in the description of this video, but you've been involved with a beautiful beautifification process of a sanctuary sanctuary recently. I know you have another project kind of looming. Uh you've also done one and just commissioned oneoff pieces. You're working on the holy face of Jesus right now. Yeah. No, you're available, huh? Yeah, I'm Yeah, these types of projects, I mean, there's Yeah, for a crafts person, this is as good as it gets. Yeah, I'm excited to do it. Yeah, but thanks a lot for taking the time to, you know, show an interest in this. This is good. Yeah. Thanks, Ken. Thanks for your time, Greg.